Never Alone

On this Memorial Day, we pause to pay tribute to the brave men and women who have given their lives in the service of our country. At cemeteries all around the nation, small American flags will be placed on the graves of U.S. Veterans, in a fitting tribute to those who have served. Nowhere is that honor more obvious than Arlington National Cemetery, just across the Potomac River from the Lincoln Memorial in our nation's capitol. The 624 acre site has more than 300,000 burial plots.

Numerous service men and women are buried at Arlington each day. Some funerals are large affairs with entire families present. Others are much smaller. But one thing is for sure. No service man or woman will ever be buried in Arlington with no one attending their service. A volunteer group known as the Arlington Ladies will see to that. A member of this group attends every funeral service for every military veteran interred at Arlington.

The group had its beginnings in 1948 when Gladys Vandenberg, wife of the Air Force Chief of Staff, Hoyt Vandenberg witnessed an Airman being buried with no one in attendance other than the officiating Chaplain and honor guard. Deeply moved by the fact that no one else was there to honor the sacrifice of the Airman, Mrs. Vandenberg enlisted the help of other members of the officers wives club to form a group that would see to it that no Air Force veteran would be buried at Arlington with no one to mourn their loss. In 1972 Julie Abrams, the wife of Army General Creighton Abrams, formed a similar group to honor Army veterans. Soon the Navy had a group of their own. The Marine Corps does not have a contingent of Arlington Ladies, but they do have a representative of the Marine Commandant in attendance at every Marine veteran's service.

The Arlington Ladies may not be a huge, front page story, but what a tribute it is to their compassion, patriotism, and gratitude, that they faithfully see to it that every single service member's funeral has someone there to honor the fallen heroes. Thanks to their dedication to the cause, the Arlington Ladies see to it that none is ever buried alone.

Memorial Day 2010

On this Memorial Day Holiday, many folks will be attending cookouts, and going to ball games. Some will be enjoying the day off by boating on the rivers or lakes, some will splash in the recently opened public and private pools. Many will be travelling by planes, trains and automobiles, taking advantage of a three day weekend. Life will go on in the USA as normal. But on this day, especially, we should all take a moment to remember those who gave their lives to preserve our American way of life. We must also never forget those brave men and women who are presently serving in our military forces. Many are in harms way today as we fight on two fronts against an insidious, yet invisible enemy in an ongoing war on terrorism.

On Monday our President will place a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier at Arlington National Cemetery, to acknowledge the sacrifices made by our veterans in all wars. Earlier today, in Kabul, Afghanistan, active duty troops have already had a memorial service for their fallen comrades. Across the river in Ironton, Ohio, the streets will be lined by hundreds of people to view the longest continually running Parade in America - the 139th Annual Ironton Memorial Day Parade. Ceremonies like these will be held on military installations, in cemeteries, parks, and streets of big cities and small towns all across America today. This is fitting and proper because of the many veterans who gave "their last full measure of devotion" while fighting various enemies under the Stars and Stripes that represented their homes, families, freedom, and American way of life.

May we never forget the sacrifices they (and their families) have made for us.

My own family has had its share of men who have served, and I am proud of them all. My great grandfather, Cumberland Adkins (Sr.) a Civil War soldier, and my grandfather, Caudle Adkins, Sr. served in the Army in WWI. He was gassed in the Argonne Forest and eventually died of lung cancer at a relatively early age. Dad (Caudle, Jr.) and his older brother "Buster" served in the US Navy during WWII. Dad's younger brother, Sammy, enlisted in the Air Force during the mid 50's. An uncle on my mother's side, Jerry "Bob" Stidham also served in the Air Force during the Korean Conflict. My brother, Bruce and I both had Viet Nam era service - he in the Navy and I in the Air Force.

On Linda's side of the family the heritage is just as rich. Her Grandfather, Cornelius Bowling was a WWI Doughboy, his brother, Andy, was held as a POW by the Germans. Linda's father, Burgess, served under General Patton, taking part in invasions of North Africa, Sicily, and Italy during WWII. Her uncle, William Smith, Jr, (a Marine) was the only family member to die while on active duty - although his death was not combat related. Linda also had several cousins who proudly served in the Armed Forces.

My brothers in law, Danny, Burgess Ray, and Bob Bowling were also veterans. Danny was an Airman, stationed in England and Langley AFB, Virginia. Burgess Ray (who later died in a mining accident) did two tours of duty with the Marines in Viet Nam and served for several years as a Marine Recruiter. Bob, also a Marine, was injured while on duty, just before his discharge in the early 70's. A couple of my nephews have also served - young Dan Bowling and Christopher Bennett also served in the Air Force. My younger son, Benji, enlisted in the US Marine Corps and faced enemy fire in Kosovo.

That's the way it has gone down through history. There have been a number of career military men and women during the history of our nation, but the vast majority of our veterans have been like those listed above - average Americans who give of themselves to serve their country. Many of them never returned to their families and homes. Let us never forget their great sacrifices on our behalf, nor the unimaginable loss suffered by their families.

All gave some, some gave all.

"Decoration Day" Memories

Back in the days of my childhood, we called it "Decoration Day". It was first enacted just after the Civil War to honor the dead Union soldiers, but after WWI, it became a federal holiday to honor all of our nation's war dead. In those days it was always on May 30th, and, as it is now, it was the kickoff for Summer. Our school year usually began the day after Labor Day, and ended just before Memorial Day. Neighborhood swimming pools opened on Memorial Day. There were parades, picnics, family reunions, and the obligatory trips to the various cemeteries where the remains of our loved ones were interred.

With our family, the Memorial Day activities each year were variations on the same theme. Wreaths and other floral arrangements were purchased a day or so in advance. The flowers were then loaded in the large trunk of the family car, along with a large cooler and picnic lunch. Mom and Dad would load the three of us in the vehicle and we were off on the trip south to Logan County, WV. Narrow State Route 10 was so crooked and winding, and the holiday traffic was so heavy that the 69 mile trip took nearly an hour and a half to complete. On Memorial Day, the road was heavily populated with vehicles bearing license plates from Ohio and Michigan. Most everyone tried to "get home" for Decoration Day.

Our first stop was always at my maternal grandparent's home in Holden. Papaw Stidham's wreaths were always more elaborate than the ones we had purchased for the day. Decoration Day was a big deal to him. He and Mamaw were already prepared to head out as soon as we arrived. She already had enough chicken fried to feed the whole family later in the day.

Next stop was just down the road at Valley View where my Uncle Bob, Aunt Irene and their family joined in the procession as we headed for the cemetery nestled on the hillside overlooking a community called Chauncey. At the Chauncey Cemetery, some of the family plots were surrounded by small fences, some were open. Ours was of the fenced variety. It enclosed the graves of my mother's younger sister, Hessie, and her baby brother, Buddy. My great grandmother (Hester Waybright) was also buried there, as were some other assorted cousins, etc. Even after more than 50 years I remember the routine vividly.

Papaw was director of logistics for the first two cemetery visits. The wreaths were unloaded from the respective car trunks. We kids were given floral arrangements to carry. The adults carried flowers and implements to cut the grass and weeds that had overgrown the plot since the last Decoration Day. Once we had climbed the fairly steep grade the work began as Dad and Uncle Bob would swing the primitive version of today's weed eaters. Mom and Mamaw knelt by the grave sites of their loved ones, pulling weeds with their gloved hands, and gathering up the old weathered wreaths from the previous year's visit. Then they helped Papaw gently place the floral wreaths in just the right spots. We kids would eventually get ancy to move on by the time the brush clearing was done. Before leaving, Mom would stand quietly with her arm around Mamaw's shoulders as she stood by the graves of her children, gently dabbing away tears with a Kleenex.

From Chauncey, the caravan moved on to a more remote spot on the other side of Logan. This cemetery was located off Rt. 119 on the road toward Blair Mountain. Papaw called the place "Foley" and Mamaw referred to it as "Sunbeam". Either way, it really wasn't near a town or community at all. The cars were parked along side of the road, and each of us took up our load to carry to the next grave sites. We walked across a rail road trestle and along the tracks for what seemed like a mile or so. (It probably wasn't, but it seemed that way to we kids!) At a certain spot (which I could never remember) Papaw indicated the place where we left the railroad tracks and began to climb the steep hill along a very faint foot path. By Foley's standards, Chauncey was a well kept "memorial park". This place was simply a set of ancient graves in a heavily wooded hillside. This is where Papaw's parents were buried, and the grave markers were plain stones with names and dates non professionally chiseled in.

After the routine was repeated, we made our trek back to the cars, which we had left parked along the highway. The next order of business was our picnic lunch. The food was good, the bottles of strawberry, orange and grape soft drinks were cold, and it was always great to play with our cousins.

As the afternoon wound down, we said our goodbyes and our little family headed back north toward Huntington, but not before making a stop at one more cemetery. This was the growing Forest Lawn Cemetery at Peck's Mill. Well maintained and immaculately manicured, it stood as a major contrast to the old graveyards at Chauncey and Sunbeam. Forest Lawn was where Dad's parents were buried. The final flowers were removed from the trunk and placed lovingly by the Adkins tombstone. After a brief time of reflection, it was back in the car and headed for home. There would be one more old country graveyard to visit (where Dad's grandparents and some of his deceased siblings were buried), but that would come on a separate trip to the old Adkins home place on the second Sunday in June.

The memories are still vivid, but it seems that those days were ages ago. Indeed, it was a different time, and things have changed.

Mom, Dad, and Aunt Irene are the only ones of the adults who will be in Logan this Memorial Day. Mom and Dad are in their eighties and Irene is not far behind. Dad gets around a little more slowly on his cane. Mom is unaware of the upcoming holiday, and Irene has faced some serious health issues, herself. Our cousins are scattered from Ohio to Georgia to Kentucky and Texas.

When the holiday rolls around on Monday, my brother Bruce will take Mom and Dad to Logan. They'll visit Irene and Dad's only surviving aunt. They'll stop by Chauncey Cemetery, where Bruce will climb the hill and do some weed eating around the old graves. Dad will supervise from afar, and Mom will just want to go home. On their way home, they'll make the stop at Forest Lawn, where all four of my grandparents are now buried.

I'll be on a plane headed for New Orleans about that time. I would like to be with them, but instead will have two hours of travel time, alone with my memories of Memorial Days past. I may dab away a tear or two myself.

Final Thoughts on the GCRTF Report.

Because of the alarming statistics that show our convention's plateauing and declining trends in evangelism and baptisms, I voted last year in the Annual Meeting to allow our SBC President to appoint a Task Force to study the situation and come back this year with recommendations. I was one of the first 1,400 of the 6,594 persons who signed on to be a GCRTF prayer partner. I have prayed for these men and women who have worked long and hard to bring us recommendations as to how we may be able to better "Penetrate the Lostness" on this planet. I applaud them for their dedication and their efforts. I find the report to be through and positive, and I am especially moved by the "Challenges to All Southern Baptists" on pages 17-26 of the report. I truly believe that if each of us stepped up to these spiritual challenges, we would, indeed, see a resurgence in our success in accomplishing our Christ given mission!

The Task Force will bring seven recommendations to the Convention when we meet in Orlando in less than a month. I fully intend to vote for five of them, vote against one of them (component 3), and the jury is still out on the other (component 4). As a Southern Baptist Pastor, here are my major concerns.

On Component 3, I take issue with the concept of "Celebrating Great Commission Giving". I will not go into the details of my opinion here as I have already done so in a previous post http://cjablog.blogspot.com/2010/05/gcrtf-part-3-most-dangerous-component.html Drs. Hunt and Floyd, Jerry Rankin, and others have made a big deal about the fact that the Cooperative Program will be reemphasised, and that really this wording changes nothing about what we are already doing. Dr. Floyd's email today http://www.pray4gcr.com/2010/05/great-commission-giving-and-the-annual-church-profile/ sets out several "facts" regarding Great Commission Giving and the Annual Church Profile. In "Fact # 5, Dr. Floyd states, " Great Commission Giving is a simple change to the Annual Church Profile Report that on last year’s report was called “Total Mission Expenditures.”

My questions are these. If nothing really changes, then what is the point? Furthermore, how will the new nomenclature have any impact on "Penetrating the Lostness"?

The issue I am still concerned about is Component number 4. The phasing out of Cooperative Agreements between the North American Mission Board and State Conventions. I was privileged to serve two years as President of the West Virginia Convention of Southern Baptists, and I am very much aware of how important the NAMB Cooperative Agreements are to our small state work. Keep in mind that there are only just over 200 SBC churches in West Virginia, and many are very small churches in very rural areas. It is also interesting to note that the entire annual budget of the WVCSB is ONE FIFTH the size of the budget of Dr. Johnny Hunt's First Baptist Church of Woodstock, GA. This should put into perspective, how small the work in West Virginia is by comparison, not just to some other state conventions, but to one single mega church!

The West Virginia Convention could not operate at the level it does without the NAMB Cooperative Agreements, or our valued partnership with the Florida Baptist Convention.

If the NAMB Cooperative Agreement were to end today, and the other recommendations of the GCRTF were implemented, the following things would happen to the West Virginia Convention:

• Our funding formula of 80/20% for many of our state convention staff salaries would collapse.


• NAMB would have the authority to unilaterally appoint people to work in WV and put them in place, with no cooperation with our state convention.


• A "new and liberated NAMB" would develop a strategy for West Virginia, apart from input from our state convention and it's churches (page 10 of the report) We presently develop mission strategy and confer with NAMB for approval.

In West Virginia, if the agreements ended today, we would lose major funding for:

• 9 of our 10 local association Directors of Missions


• The State Convention Director of Missions


• The State Evangelism Director


• The State WMU/Women's Ministry Director


• All three Campus Ministers


• Our Resort Missionaries


• 12 Church Planters


• Our State Missions Volunteer Coordinator


• 35% of our state convention budget

As you can see, this would be a true crisis for our state convention if it were to happen today. The report recommends phasing out the agreements over seven years. Even then this would be a difficult pill for the Mountain State to swallow.

Members of the Task Force have assured some of our state pastors, that we "don't have to worry about West Virginia. It will be taken care of." That is all well and good, but the report does not address how the agreements will be replaced. We are facing a lot of unknown out there and to some of us it almost smacks of the verbiage that we heard with "Obamacare". "Just trust us!"

We want to trust these men that we have long held deep respect for, but it is asking a lot, to just go along with the recommendations, with no firm answers to our questions anywhere in sight. Seriously, the whole thing is just open ended enough to cause concern, and that is why I say the jury is still out on this component.

These are my basic disagreements with the report. Many folks are in agreement with me on these points. That doesn't make us bad Southern Baptists, it just means we have a difference of opinion. Unfortunately I have already seen subtle charges that paint those who may disagree with portions of the report to be negative, and somehow opposed to "Penetrating the Lostness" in America and around the world. I can't answer for everyone who may have issues with the report, but I can say unequivocally that I love the SBC. I love lost people. I love the members of the GCRTF. I believe in the Great Commission, and I am committed to continue to lead my congregation in maintaining and growing in its 95 year history of being a Great Commission Church. We have planted other churches in the past, and we look for opportunites to do so in the future. We will continue to give 10% to the Cooperative Program We will continue to support our local association. We will continue to give to Annie, and Lottie, and Ola Cox. We will continue to be involved in Disaster Relief, and short term overseas mission trips. We believe in the Great Commission!

I'll vote my conscience on the seven recommendations from the GCRTF, but if I happen to vote "No" on two of them, don't tell me I'm not in favor of "Penetrating the Lostness".

That is one West Virginia pastor's opinion, "For What It's Worth".

A Message from Joe McKeever

Some of my readers may not be familiar with Joe McKeever's blog. Beside being a prolific cartoonist, long time pastor and director of missions, Joe posts several times per week on his website, joemcckeever.com. Joe's articles and messages come from a man who is intimate with God, and his wisdom and years of pastoral experience always come through. I was especially touched by his post today. I encourage you to click on this link and consider the truth he shares about "What 'Conservative' Means". It is a message Christians need to hear loud and clear!

I have included this link with his permission.

http://www.joemckeever.com/mt/archives/001436.html

I would encourage you to save Joe's website to your favorites, or better yet, sign up to receive his updates via email.

Arizona's New Immigration Law

Much has been said about Arizona's new Immigration Law. Most of it has been negative. The President has characterized it as "misguided". He says that full blown immigration reforms are necessary but not just now.

I think the operative question would be "If not now, when?"

We are a nation of immigrants. As someone once jokingly said, "Our forefathers have been kicked out of some of the greatest nations on earth". But seriously, other than the Native American descendants, and the descendants of slaves who were brought here against their will, most of us are the progeny of immigrants. Immigrants who came here willfully and legally. Some came to escape tyranny and persecution. Some who came were seeking a better way of life in search of "The American Dream". Yet they were people who came according to the rule of law.

Our nation has strict and comprehensive immigration laws on the books. Unfortunately, federal authorities have been remiss in enforcing those laws. With this being the case, and illegal immigration becoming a full blown crisis in some of our border states, one can hardly blame Arizona, or others in taking measures to try to stem the flood of illegal aliens.

Opponents of the new Arizona law have likened it to those of Nazi Germany. Comedians have made light of it, and certain broadcast and print media outlets have castigated Arizona's legislators and Governor for passing the bill and signing it into law. The law has been roundly criticized by the Attorney General of the United States, and the Director of Homeland Security, yet amazingly by their own admission last week, neither of them had read the text of the law, nor had they been "fully briefed" on it before criticizing it.

There is no excuse for such ignorance on the part of our Federal bureaucracy. The law is simple and straightforward, and it is only 16 pages long. Here is a link to a website that contains the text of the law.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

Read it for yourself, and judge for yourself. Any of your constructive comments would be welcome.

GCRTF - Part 3 "The Most Dangerous Component of All"

The June, 2006 Southern Baptist Convention in Greensboro, NC will always be a memorable experience for me. That was the year my son, Jay, a pastor in the New Orleans area was nominated for Second Vice President along with North Carolina pastor J.D. Greear, Bob Bender of Colorado, and long time SBC gadfly Wiley Drake of California. I honestly expected Greear, a well known up and coming young pastor to probably win the post. However, due (I think in part) to one of the most hilarious nominating speeches in the history of the SBC, Wiley Drake won the election on the first ballot! It is an experience Jay would probably like to forget.

The bigger surprise of the Convention, however, was the election of Frank Page to the office of SBC President. I had made the tip to Greensboro fully expecting Ronnie Floyd, Pastor of First Baptist Church of Springdale, Arkansas to be elected to replace the outgoing President, Bobby Welch. After all, Floyd was a very popular SBC pastor with a national reputation. He was pastor of a two campus megachurch in Arkansas and his name would be placed in nomination by Johnny Hunt, pastor of the great First Baptist Church of Woodstock, GA. This convention saw five men actually nominated for the position. This was the first highly contested SBC Presidential race since Jim Henry had defeated Fred Wolfe in 1994. Also in the mix in 2006 was the Jerry Sutton, highly respected pastor of Two Rivers Baptist Church in Nashville, TN.

Now, I do not consider myself an expert on all things SBC, but since coming over from another Baptist denomination in 1980, I had tried to stay aprised of the goings on in SBC life. Frank Page was a relative unknown to me. I only knew that he was pastor of a large church in Taylors, South Carolina. In my humble opinion, at that time, I thought the race would come down to the wire between Floyd and Sutton. Perhaps there would even have to be a second ballot runoff. However, the messengers to the convention seemed to be stunned when the results of the first ballot were reported:

• Page had won with 50.48% of the vote


• Floyd was a distant second with 24.95%


• Sutton, third with 24.08%

The reason for the upset? I believe it was twofold. The first factor in Page's favor was the tremendous nominating speech given by the late Forrest Pollack, pastor of Bell Shoals Baptist Church in Florida. Pollack's speech not only revealed much about Page, but also emphasised what I believe to be the most important factor in Frank Page's election over the other two well known candidates. Page pastored a church that gave more than 12% of its undesignated receipts to the SBC Cooperative Program. The other two churches led by Floyd and Sutton gave much lower percentages. Granted, these churches gave tremendous amounts of money to various mission works (as did FBC Taylors) but the Cooperative Program giving was woefully low in comparison.

Cooperation has long been the key word in Southern Baptist work. The giants of our Convention of the past understood the simple truth that we can all do more together than we can do individually. That is why local autonomous churches voluntarily join together to cooperate in local associations, state conventions, and the world wide work of the SBC. 85 years ago, the Cooperative Program of giving came about for the same reason. The concept was simple, but powerful in its scope. Each local church would give its own determined amount (usually a set percentage) of its undesignated receipts to the Cooperative Program. That offering would be sent on to the respective state convention. The state convention would keep a self determined percentage for the mission work of that convention, and send the remainder of the local church's Cooperative Program gifts to the Executive Committee in Nashville, to be distributed among the various entities of the Southern Baptist Convention. The amounts sent to each entity, would be budgeted as determined by the local churches duly elected "messengers" to the SBC Annual Meeting.

Presently, here is how the Cooperative Program monies are divided among the various SBC entities in the SBC Allocation Budget:

• 50% to the International Mission Board for world missions


• 22.79% to the North American Mission Board


• 22.16% for theological education (with 21.9% being divided among the six SBC seminaries - in a formula based on full time enrollment and 0.24% supports the Southern Baptist Historical Library and Archives


• 3.4% for the SBC Operating Budget/Facilitating Ministries


• 1.65% to the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission

(LifeWay Christian Resources and Guidestone Financial Services are self supporting)

Part of the monies that go to the North American Mission Board are sent back to some of the state conventions as set up in cooperative agreements between NAMB and the state conventions to help with church planting, collegiate ministries, etc. The Cooperative Program has served this Convention well for 85 years as arguably the greatest mission funding program ever known to Christendom. It allows churches such as my own to support more than 10,000 missionaries at home and abroad as well as helping keep theological education affordable for the students in six seminaries!

Our church is larger than some SBC churches and smaller than others. Our Annual Church Profile for 2009 shows a total of $41,766. in total mission expenditures. Of that amount, $25,673 (10% of our undesignated offerings) go to the Cooperative Program. The rest is given to other causes such as 3% to our local association; along with designated offerings to "those three women" - Lottie Moon, Annie Armstrong, Ola Cox (State Missions); SBC Disaster Relief; regular support for two national pastors at SBC churches in the Philippines; as well as local mission projects in our state and city.

Let me say loud and clear that I do not believe that 10% Cooperative Program giving should be a litmus test for what should be considered as a "cooperating" SBC church, but I think it is a good place to start. In our personal giving, Linda and I start with 10% to our local church, and then add designated amounts for offerings for other projects or ministries. I share that vision in any church that I lead, and I believe it is a good pattern for our SBC giving as well. Baptist churches are indeed autonomous and can give however and wherever they choose to outside causes, but for my money there is much more "bang for the buck" through the Cooperative Program.

To me, the most odious (and I believe, dangerous) part of the Great Commission Resurgence Task Force Final Report is the language on Component Three- "Celebrating and Empowering Great Commission Giving". While the Task Force gives lip service to the Cooperative Program in this article (and also in Component Six) it coins a new moniker, "Great Commission Giving". This Great Commission Giving would encompass the Cooperative Program, but also ALL mission giving into the same category - for the purpose of "Celebrating" the amount given by local churches.

Why?

Pardon my cynicism, but to this pastor the only reason for such language is to divert attention from the paltry percentages given to the Cooperative Program by some huge churches, whose pastors often seek and hold high offices in our Convention. That is precisely what happened in Greensboro in 2006. The messengers looked at the Cooperative Program giving of the churches whose leaders were running for President, and Frank Page won overwhelmingly. As someone recently pointed out in a Baptist Press article, "What has changed since 2006?" Do we as a Convention of more than 40,000 churches think any less of the Cooperative Program than we did four years ago? I think not! As I pointed out in an earlier post, I am not qualified to judge motives, but one has to wonder. If it looks like a duck...etc.

Furthermore, "celebrating" the dollar amounts of "Great Commission Giving" is, probably unscriptural in it's very language. Jesus taught us in the Sermon on the Mount regarding the dangers of flaunting our giving. Again, I don't believe that 10% to the Cooperative Program should be a litmus test as to who is a "good" Southern Baptist, but I do think it is a telling statistic, when churches with budgets 5 times larger than the budget of my own state convention give less than 5% to the funding mechanism which best exemplifies our historic commitment to cooperation.

At the Annual Meeting in Orlando next month, I will be listening closely as to how these recommendations will be presented to the messengers for a vote. It they are considered separately I will cast my ballot against Component Three. If taken as a whole for a vote, I will reluctantly vote against the entire report, and urge my friends and fellow messengers to do the same. I believe the Cooperative Program is THAT important to the continued success of the Southern Baptist Convention in carrying out the Great Commission. That is one pastor's opinion "For What It's Worth".

(I will address my concerns about Components Four and Five in an upcoming post)